In this episode of the Agency Builders podcast, Logan Lyles and Susan Fennema discuss the critical issue of owner dependency in agencies. They explore…
- The personal and business impacts of this dependency,
- Symptoms to look for,
- And practical steps agency owners can take to eliminate it.
The conversation emphasizes the importance of documentation, delegation, and the right tools to empower teams and enhance agency operations. Susan shares insights on navigating personal relationships in delegation and the significance of having clear processes in place. All to ensure business success without the constant involvement of the owner.
Please find the full transcript below:
Introductions
Logan Lyles: Welcome back to the Agency Builders Podcast. Today, we’re going to be talking about a critical step in scaling your agency, eliminating owner dependency. What is owner dependency? Why is it bad? Where does it hold us back? Is it always bad? And what can you do to actually eliminate it? Today I’m joined by a good friend of mine who is with Beyond the Chaos. (Who does a lot of operations and project management consulting). Especially with service-based businesses like agencies. Susan Fennema, welcome to the show, Susan.
Susan Fennema: Thanks for having me, Logan. Good to see you again.
Logan: Yeah, it is great to reconnect with you. Susan and I got to know each other during my time at a project management platform, Teamwork.com. She was actually one of the very first partners and consultants in that ecosystem that I met. Had been working with a lot of agencies to onboard them onto Teamwork.com and help them optimize their project management and operations overall.
The Importance of Removing Owner Dependency
Logan: So, Susan. You’ve seen the ins and outs of agencies of lots of different sizes, at lots of different stages. Tell me a little bit about why this idea of eliminating owner dependency is so important for most agencies, based on what you’re hearing from the agencies you work with.
Susan: So great intro question because this is a long answer. There’s two sides to it. One is the owner as a person side. If everything depends on you, if you’re the bottleneck. If you have to make the decisions and everything, you’re working late nights, early mornings, weekends, that is not healthy, and that will burn you out faster than anything, which also will have an effect on the business.
But on the business side of it, you’re looking at people that aren’t being effective because they’re waiting on you. You might look at things happening that are not how you intend them to happen. When you delegate something out, comes back wrong, and then everybody’s mad at each other because it’s not what anybody expected. You might have clients that are getting late things because something got hung up five steps ago, waiting on you to answer. It can be any of these things that inflame the situation, but there are two major outcomes. Two.
One, your business value is not as high as it could be. You can’t sell that business if you wanted to because it depends on you. And people don’t like to buy jobs. They like to buy businesses that run. And the second is that your team will not feel empowered to make decisions. So you’re kind of forcing those people to wait for you. They might not be proactive. You might make them feel like they can’t make a decision, and then you lose some of the really good people, because the really good people want to do that. You end up with a mediocre team, and that’s going to drive clients and profits down. Long story short, it’s not a good thing.
Logan: It’s not a good thing. And I think there was a great breakdown, and I think a lot of agency owners listening to this can relate to both the personal side and the business side.
I mean, Jay Owen, founder of our agency over at Business Builders and co-founder here at Agency Builders, he’s said that before he got to a certain stage, and I forget what revenue mark or what year mark it was in the agency. And he’s like, “The agency is at a point that it’s never been. At the same time, I’m stressed out, worn out, and ready to quit.” Right. And that list of three has been repeated so often among agency owners, peers that we talk to a lot. And so there’s that side of it. If it’s all dependent on you, you probably set out to start your agency for the freedom and the autonomy that entrepreneurship and owning an agency brings.
But you might find that it’s not actually bringing that freedom, and it might be because everything is dependent on you. I also like that you talked about the business impacts, the valuation, the culture, the quality of work that you’re delivering to clients. You may think that you’re holding onto a lot because you really prize and you probably do. You really do prize delivering great work to clients. But if you’re being that bottleneck, then you’re actually, even though your intentions are good, you’re kind of responsible for those bad outcomes and bad experiences for your clients.
The Symptoms of Owner Dependency
Logan: I think we’ve already touched on a few here, Susan, but what are some of the symptoms that you tend to recognize in the agencies that you’re consulting with that you say there’s too much owner dependency in this situation?
Susan: One thing that comes to mind, and it’s part of why our company is named Beyond the Chaos, is the chaos that exists. Nobody has a clear understanding of how to take something from start to finish on their own or throughout their teams. So it’s almost like you just have a whole bunch of people frantically running around doing things. They’re not focused. It’s not strategic steps or very clear tactical steps, even. That’s one symptom. High turnover is another one. As we discussed burnout, but also a total sense of overwhelm, and perhaps not just by the owner.
Some of the managers, creative directors, people in those roles might also be feeling that same thing because they are modeling the owner as to how they manage. So you can run into that at different layers of the business as well, depending on how you set it up. I do find that agencies that grow quickly often have hired very high-quality people in roles like the creative director role, the account services, like VP-type roles.
Logan: Yeah.
Susan: And they’re able to hand off to them because those people can run their own groups. They’re good enough that they can run their own groups, but the owner also hasn’t kept in mind what happens if they leave? Or worse, what happens if something happens to them, if the stress you’re causing actually causes them to have a heart attack? And let’s not joke around. That happens.
Logan: Yeah.
Susan: Right. So what do you do when that person’s not there? Now you’re thrown back into it and talk about overwhelm. Now you don’t even know what they were doing every day.
The Vacation Test
Susan: So those are some of the symptoms you can see across the board, but here’s a good one that’s a good test. Can you, as the owner, take a three-week unplugged vacation from your business? Test that. If you can’t, then the business is very dependent on you. And by the way, I’m not suggesting that if you haven’t done this, that you just go do it right away.
Logan: Yes. That’s not what we’re saying. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Finish the rest of this episode at least before you just let everybody know and text the whole team, I’m off for the next three weeks. Right, Susan?
Susan: Exactly. You might want to make sure some things are in place first or maybe try a long weekend to start.
Logan: Yeah, let’s ease into it.
Susan: Yeah, those are some symptoms you can look for in your business.
Logan: Yeah, I love that simple test that you mentioned there at the end. I mean, all kidding aside, if you heard Susan just say that and instantly your shoulders tensed up and you’re like, no, like if your gut reaction was heck no, right, or something,-
Susan: Worse.
Logan: Even beyond that, right? Then it’s probably not passing that test.
Are You Ready For Change?
Logan: So what I want to get to with you, Susan, is talking about how can agency owners eliminate this owner dependency, but I think before we get into do this and then this, then this. Where do you suggest kind of they start and assess the situation, and see if “Am I at the right stage to start taking some of those steps to step back?”.
Because as you and I have talked about before, we’ve seen agency owners think that they like, they read EOS, they read Traction and the EOS, and they’re like, oh, I need an integrator, and I can just hire a COO and just step back and it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. It’s not time to jump to step number five. So talk to us a little bit about some of those pitfalls, and then we’ll get into, I think, kind of the step-by-step how to really eliminate owner dependency.
Susan: Think a good way to tell, and so this applies to businesses of any size, right? Whether you have three total people in the company or 300, the owner’s always the bottleneck. There’s always something the owner’s doing that they maybe shouldn’t be doing or don’t know not to do. Maybe they just love it, in which case that’s okay, keep doing that, but here’s a good way to start. Start documenting what you’re doing every day. I’m not talking about make it hard, don’t fill out some six-minute time sheet or anything like that. Keep a piece of paper and a pen. I’m not pen and paper person, so that’s a big thing for me.
Logan: Yeah.
Susan: Keep that by you, jot down what you’re doing. At the end of the week, add things that maybe you do weekly, you do monthly, you do quarterly, you do annually, that might not have made the list. And start thinking through those things. Put a price tag on them. How much would it cost, or how much would you price that task at? Is checking your email a high-dollar task? Maybe sending that proposal or talking with a potential new client, maybe that is a very high-dollar task.
Logan: Yeah.
The $$$ of Tasks
Susan: But what are those tasks, and what is the price tag that you would put on them? Once you start looking at how you price those roles, it’s easier to step back and say, maybe I could pay somebody $20 an hour to check my $20 an hour task email. Maybe I don’t pay somebody $200 an hour to build the relationship to close a deal. And you can base that on your profits and revenue, whatever is more comfortable with your business. So don’t do it all at once. Let’s space it out based on make some progress, knock off those lower-level tasks first, and build up to the higher level ones.
Logan: Yeah. And so when you’re saying, just to clarify for folks who are maybe going to take action on this, I mean every time it’s podcast or webinar, there’s three groups of people, people who are going to take action, people who are going to look for help to implement the steps and people who are going to do nothing. So if they’re not in that third group, which I hope most people aren’t today, you were saying price it not based on just how much time it takes you, but what’s the value of that task, of that recurring thing that you’re doing? Am I understanding you right there?
Susan: Right, exactly. So if you have a $20 an hour task, checking your email, packaging up FedEx packages to send art to your client, hopefully you’re not doing those things. Somebody else is helping you manage those things. If you are doing those things, then how many of them do you have? You don’t have to hire a full-time person.
There are a bunch of fractional options out there at any level from executive assistant to C-level that you can hire virtually or part-time in your office, depending on where you’re located. If you’re trying to hire in the office, you do start to eliminate; it’s got to be people nearby. There are people out there, and you can even mix and match, some in the office and some not. So it also doesn’t have to be a full-time investment. You don’t have to say, Oh, I got to have 40 hours of $20 an hour to hire somebody.
Logan: It sounds so straightforward, and I think a lot of folks listening to this are like, “Yeah, I know that,” but do we, right? I’ve seen so many agency owners say, “Oh, I’ve got this need. All right, we got to hire someone, put together a job description. Let’s put it out there. It’s going to be this much annually plus benefits and all these sorts of things.” And hold on, even if you think that you need to hire a full-time person because there’s enough of these $20 an hour tasks to justify $20 an hour at full-time doesn’t mean you need to start there. You can search for that person who can come in fractionally, and maybe they grow into a full-time role.
I think so often that’s where we get ourselves in trouble. One of our previous episodes was about an agency that they had one big as I, and I’ve heard Drew McClellan say as well, gorilla client, who’s taking up too much revenue for one client in your agency. They leave, and all of a sudden, you got to look around and eliminate positions.
That doesn’t happen as easily one, if you don’t let one client take the lion’s share of your revenue and don’t put yourself in that position. But the other point is, don’t be too reliant on just full-time employees to staff and fill the demand for your agency. All right, I love that. It’s super practical. You love how I think.
The Next Steps…
Logan: Susan, I always want to get to the how-to, the next steps. What are the next steps along the way of this journey of eliminating owner dependency that you would suggest to folks who maybe they start documenting their time, and then they’re saying, okay, what do I do after that?
Susan: So process is really one of the next steps because you can’t hire anybody to meet your needs and to do a good job if they don’t know what the expectation is. Most business owners know exactly what perfect looks like in their own brain, and they’re used to executing everything perfectly themselves. So one of the reasons why we’re owners of our businesses is because we wanted to do that.
But how do you set somebody else up for success? And I hope this doesn’t come as a huge surprise to everyone, but read my mind is not one that works. It actually needs to be a written, or especially if you’re starting with a project manager or executive assistant, it can be a recording. So, a Loom, a Zoom, a video on your phone of how you do this, so that they can replicate it the way that you want it done.
And you don’t have to make a big deal out of this. It’s just the next time you do it, pull up your Loom and record yourself doing it on the screen. I did that when I needed to hand off processing referral fees. It was becoming such this ordeal, and it seemed like, oh, I have to do this every quarter. It’s such a big deal. And I’m like, wait a minute. No, I just have to walk somebody through what my thought process is, give them the video, they’ll write it up for me, and then from there on out, they can do it.
So maybe the first month or the first quarter, I have to check them doing it, but then after that, they’ll just ask me if they have a question because it’s written and we know what the expectation is. If any challenges come up, if I hear somebody didn’t get paid, or somebody got overpaid, or some expectation wasn’t met, now you’re able to talk to the person and say, “This did not come out the way I expected. What in our process is not right?” So it also gives you a managerial tool to be able to have those conversations in a non-confrontational way.
Logan: Yeah. Yeah. Because sometimes it’s, “Hey, what did I forget to tell you?” Or, “I realize that I forgot this one caveat, that we actually need a seventh item on the checklist, as you go through of how to handle a situation. I gave you these six, but I forgot about this one because it doesn’t come up that often.” And I think the way that you empower someone to not replicate that error, even if it was their fault or wasn’t, is “Hey, can you add this to the process documentation you created?”
The “Read-My-Mind” Trap in Owner Dependency
Logan: Right. And I also, just to go back of one of the things you said earlier is I think a lot of agency owners, a lot of business owners in general, entrepreneurs are like, they struggle with delegation for two reasons. It’s the read-my-mind trap, right, which, if you want to get out of that, just put yourself back into the mindset. The last time that you were working directly with a client and they said, “Can we make this pop?” And you were like, “Oh my gosh,” and you rolled your eyes, right?
That’s what’s happening to your team when you try and delegate and just say, “Make this better,” or something like that. The second thing is you think that now you have to become an expert in documentation in order to delegate. But actually, all that you need to do is, especially with tools like Loom these days, just record what you do. It doesn’t matter that you don’t have it bullet-pointed and that sort of stuff. Record it on Loom and have your executive assistant or whoever you’re delegating to have them turn that into a checklist, into a process, or have ChatGPT do it, or have your executive assistant have ChatGPT do it. Right. Teach them how to delegate to ChatGPT. So anyway, I’m kind of getting off on a tangent, but just a couple of nuggets there to put what you’re talking about to use there, Susan.
Susan: Absolutely. And the process part doesn’t have to be hard. I think that eventually, you’re going to want a fairly high-level operational person take a look at your overall processes. How do they interact with each other? Are they created to scale? I’ll tell you a story. We had our actual — filled out. We were asking what was going on with payroll. Why was payroll taking so long? We thought it was simple. What’s going on?
We got a 20-page document from them of every step they actually did. And we’re like, “Can we fix this for you?” Because it was perfect documentation. They actually had documented every single thing they did, but no one stopped and said, “Does this make sense? Is this the fastest way?”
Logan: Yeah, it’s well well-documented process, but is it the right process?
Susan: How can we automate it? How can we make it simpler? Is there one thing we can ask somebody else to provide us that eliminates 10 steps? Nobody thought to do that. And it does take a pretty experienced operational person to be able to see and figure that out. So there is a difference between documenting processes and building processes to scale, but your first step is document them because that’s the only way you get things off your plate in order to be able to start to scale.
Logan: Yeah, there was a great line, I think, from one of the co-founders of Trainual that stuck in my mind when I interviewed him for a podcast I used to host. It was,
“Do it, document it, delegate it.”
And so often we try to skip that middle step, or we try to delegate something that someone else on the team is doing, and we haven’t kind of worked through it ourselves. Either of those can kind of get us into some trouble.
Steps To Remove Business Owner Reliance
Logan: All right, so we’ve identified what we want to delegate, and we’ve started to document it. What are some of the next steps in this journey of eliminating owner dependency from here, Susan?
Susan: Making sure you have the right tools is one, because that is what starts to eliminate redundancy in people. So, you don’t want to hire 10 people to do something when one tool could’ve made it one person. So, making sure that you have a cohesive set of software tools that are working for your business, that everyone in every seat knows what they’re supposed to use and for what purpose. I can just give you a general look of what would make a great packet of software for an agency.
HubSpot for your CRM, that’s sales, that’s marketing.
Teamwork.com for your project management tool. That’s once it’s sold through delivery.
And then Slack is your communication tool alongside of that, if you’re using those three, they connect nicely to each other. There are clear delineations of which tool does what, and every team member knows what is their area to go to when they need their truth. Which tool has my truth in it?
Logan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
Susan: So, tools would be next in my opinion. I would actually look at the tools before I started really enhancing processes, but the first part of delegating to some people to get things off your plate, so you can think about it, that’s your first step. Then the tools, then the bigger processes, back to bigger processes.
Logan: Yeah. I think my time in the project management space, where we initially crossed paths, Susan, one of the big mistakes I saw agencies make was, “Okay, we’ve got a problem. I need to…
- Automate something.
- Get out of it.
- A tool.
Right. Well, if you don’t have a process documented that the tool’s going to enhance and you don’t have an owner of that process, then you’re taking that away from who can kind of quality control it, right, if the automation doesn’t go perfectly, those sorts of things to figure out what do we need to take back into human hands, then you’re kind of skipping two steps ahead, right, and jumping straight to the tool.
Susan: For sure. And none of these tools are magic. I mean, putting the tool in place is not going to solve your problem; it gives you a tool to use properly to solve your problem.
Logan: Right.
The Importance of Agencies in Stopping Owner Dependency
Susan: So it does have to be worked. It does have to be managed, and it needs some process around how you’re using it. Most of these tools, I mean, if somebody gave you a demo of HubSpot, your head would explode. It’s so much. There’s so much, but probably your agency doesn’t need but a 10th of it, and you can teach the people that 10th, and now no one’s heads exploding. They’re doing their job well.
Logan: Right. Right. And I think the other thing, for those agencies listening to this who are familiar with HubSpot, maybe you’re a HubSpot partner. Again, taking the truths that we know for our clients and applying them to ourselves at the agency. A client might come to you and say, “Hey, we need HubSpot. I heard it’s going to solve all our problems.” And then just thinking that they’re going to hire you, just install HubSpot, get it set up, and then all of a sudden, leads are going to start flowing. We know to tell a client that’s not how it works. We should also expect the same thing for our own agencies, whether we’re implementing HubSpot, something like Teamwork.com, or whatever the case might be.
So I think this has been very step-by-step for folks.
Go Slowly & Measure The Outcome
Logan: Susan, I want to get into one other thing that’s kind of related. You mentioned talking to some other agency owners recently, where they tried to start to get out of it by hiring some close friends and family, and that creates kind of a unique mass. But before we jump to that, anything else here on kind of these progressive steps to eliminate owner dependency at a high level first?
Susan: I don’t think so, except if you’re going to do it yourself, go slowly because it is a lot and it is overwhelming, and you want to make sure that you’re measuring the outcome of your delegation or of your process so that you don’t just do it, hand it off, forget it. You still need to make sure that the outcome is what you expected.
Logan: Yeah, great point there.
Owner Dependency: Sticky Situations
Logan: All right, onto kind of the messy question. This might be the highlight of the episode of finding yourself in these sorts of situations that are a little sticky, little messy. When you’ve tried to delegate, maybe for whatever reason you’ve gone to friends, family, people you know, and so giving that feedback or letting someone go or whatever the case might be, any of those are just really tougher than even how challenging they are for most agency owners. What’s been some of your advice for folks who’ve tried to delegate this way and it’s gone sideways on them?
Susan: It’s painful. One is, you have to make that separation at work and make sure that they know this is the job I need done in order for the company to be successful. And this is where I’m seeing that you either don’t know to do it because I’m not a good delegator, or that you can’t do it because maybe we connected at the wrong period or at the right period at the right time. But things have changed because that’s what’s going to happen. And you would find this even with an employee that you started out with. You might outgrow them.
And so how you handle that can be very tricky. One is, you might be able to find something that they can do well, and maybe they stay doing only that well. We had to tell one of our clients not that long ago that their very first employee, unless they were going to take on a lot more responsibility, could probably never get a raise again, that they were already so priced high because they had been there so long and earning money over time, but now we’re a scaling business and we can’t afford that anymore.
And you could hire somebody for half that price. It’s hard. And the person took it really well. One thing they did is they put us in the middle, so it was somebody else telling them that. It wasn’t their friend telling them that. And so if you get to that point where you’re growing and you’re looking for somebody that could be a COO or an integrator at that level that could maybe take over some of that, that kind of can soften that personal relationship from being soured.
Logan: Yeah.
Susan: So I would look at some of those. It could even look at hiring an outside HR consulting company just temporarily to help you solve some of those challenges.
Logan: Another area where fractional help can add a lot of value without a ton of commitment or the typical overhead costs that you just might not have, depending on the size of your agency.
Right Person, Right Seat
Logan: And some of the things I just call out there, Susan, to kind of piggyback on what you said, I think that one of the things that I love about the EOS system is this language of right person, right seat. If you’re not familiar with that and you haven’t read Traction, go get that book right now, and I promise you, you can read it over the weekend or listen to it. I knew you’d be reaching for it soon. It’s right here if you’re watching the video, and Susan’s got it up on the screen, but this idea of right person, right seat, you can have these conversations to say, maybe we don’t have you in the right seat, and I can take responsibility for that.
Or maybe the seat has changed. We no longer need this seat; we need this seat filled. I think that you could step over there. I think it might be something that you want, but I don’t want to make any assumptions. And then you ask them, do you think that you, as they also say in EOS language, get it, want it, and have the capacity to do it. Do you get it? Do you understand what I’m saying? The new seat is what the new assignment is. Do you want that seat, right? And do you think you have the capacity to do it? Now you also have to ultimately make that judgment.
Just because they say yes, yes, yes, doesn’t mean that you just shuffle them around. Because I’ve been part of agencies where we tried to shuffle people from seat to seat to keep them on the bus, and ultimately it wasn’t the right thing for the agency or for the person. But if you start that conversation the right way, not always going to end the right way.
I was just talking with another agency owner, I think I mentioned to you previously, Susan, where they had one of these conversations, they were like, time out. Here’s my resignation letter. And that was that. Now that actually wasn’t the situation they were hoping for, but maybe it was the best because that situation may have just gotten worse. So anyway, tangents aside, some really good stuff there. What do you want to add, Susan? Go for it.
Susan: I would jump in there too, that I think a lot of business owners have a avoidance problem, right? They want to avoid the hard conversations, and I promise you that if you avoid a conversation like this, it will make it so much worse. Having it honestly with empathy is your best bet to move forward. Avoiding it will just make it worse over time.
Logan: Yeah, absolutely.
Rapid-Fire Section
Logan: All right, well, Susan, before we let you go, we’ve got to hit you with our rapid-fire round of questions. You’ve been through a similar process with me before, so even though I don’t think you’ve seen the new rapid-fire round of questions, we’re just going to hit them with you.
1. Book Recommendation?
Logan: So number one, maybe it’s just the one we were just talking about, what’s one book you often recommend to agency owners, Susan?
Susan: Well, I’m not going to recommend that one. I’m going to recommend mine.
Logan: There we go.
Susan: Efficiency Amplified: Driving Business Value is about process development for small business. And so if that’s where you’re struggling, this will help you walk through it.
2. Next Challenge For BTC?
Logan: Perfect. All right, Susan, what’s the next challenge you and your team are focused on tackling this quarter?
Susan: We are tackling attending conferences and getting more speaking engagements. That’s one of our big things right now. So all of us are looking at what’s local, what targets our market, how can we get involved? That’s really a big push for us this whole year.
3. Tool Recommendation?
Logan: I love it. All right. Number three, you know I can nerd out on this one. We’ve talked a little bit about tools and software, especially for agencies today. What’s a tool you’ve been recommending to folks in the agency Community? Could be a Chrome extension, could be a full-blown software tool that runs your business. Could be an iPhone app. Anything is fair game here.
Susan: Well, I’m going to go with Teamwork.com. If you’re not using it, you should be. It is the best agency project management tool out there, and it’s getting better every day. It really is great.
Logan: Absolutely.
Susan: I’ll toe the company line on that one. I am still a partner there.
Logan: Yeah, yeah. No direct connection, but still have lots of friends there and I would recommend it as well. We’ll put a link to check out teamwork.com in the show notes, as well as to Susan’s book that she mentioned. If you want to get either of those, just go to the show notes or the description on this video and take some next steps there.
4. Susan’s Question to Agency Builders’ Community
Logan: For Susan, if you could, we’ve currently, I think, got 350, 360 agency owners in our Agency Builders community. If you could ask one question of all of them and get all those answers kind of tabulated and back, what do you think you’d use that one question on to learn from the community?
Susan: When is the last time you took an unplugged vacation?
Logan: Going back to that litmus test, right?
Susan: Yep.
Logan: Yeah. Perfect.
5. Who Has Helped You In Your Business-Owner Journey?
Logan: All right. We’ll round it out. Susan, who’s one person you want to thank or mention who’s helped you in your own journey as a business owner?
Susan: When this question comes up, I always go to my dad. My dad has owned businesses since he was 25 years old. He’s 83, about to sell his last one, and he taught me how to run businesses with integrity first and always, putting God first in how we interact with people and care for people and in making practical, logical decisions, and how you do it. He also is one who says, “Systems make the business go,” so.
Logan: There you go. That’s where you got it. That’s where you got it. Awesome.
Contact Us!
Logan: Well, Susan, one final question for you, and that is for anyone who’s not as good a friend with you as I am, you’re new, popping up on their radar. What’s the best way for them to reach out, stay connected with you, find other resources you guys have at Beyond the Chaos?
Susan: Best place is our website, beyondthechaos.biz. There is a contact form on there, too. That will come straight to me. So if you fill that out, we will be back in touch before you know it.
Logan: I love it. Awesome. Susan, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I appreciate it.
Susan: Thanks, Logan.