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I began 2021 as a podcast guest on Kut2thaChase, featuring Gregory Proctor. Gregory’s podcast embodies open dialog with friends, family, and professional colleagues talking about reality and things that impact our means to thrive. Make sure you don’t miss our rapid fire game at the end.

Please find the full video transcript below. 

Gregory:  Hello, everyone, this is your host, Gregory Proctor, and welcome to another episode of Kut2thaChase, episode 51. That’s right people, episode 51. We’re into our third season. Yes, sir. Things have been going pretty well for us over here at Kut2thachase. And today, I have a special guest that not only a friend, a confidant, a professional colleague. I mean, there’s just so many things I can say that is just outstanding about our featured guest. But before I do that, I want to say, most of all, she’s my laughing buddy, so we’re going to have a great, great time today. Since we have so much in common based on the fact that our businesses are very similar in what we do for services, I just think it’s going to be a very fun-filled type of podcast today.


And so, to our listeners today in episode 51, we’re going to talk about beyond the chaos. We’re going to segue that a little bit with dos and don’ts. It’s going to kind of relate to the extremities of kind of what Susan and I do in business. So, to our listeners, our special guest today is Susan Fennema. She is the chaos eradication officer. People go, what? Does that not mean CEO? Well, yeah, I mean, it’s just a new spin on it. It’s the chaos eradication officer of Beyond the Chaos, which is a consultancy service helping small business owners to simplify their operation and manage their projects so they can grow their business and get back to their lives.

I absolutely love that about our featured guest. She’s such a fun-loving person. Ever since we’ve started to collaborate and talk, I mean, just the synergy, the energy, it’s just so impactful. So, Susan has over 30 years of operational experience plus project management experience in professional services in many different industries. She’s on a mission to improve American society exponentially, and particularly as it relates to small business.

So for all you small business folks out there listening to this, whether you’re woman-owned, minority-owned or you’re just a small business, or whatever category you want to put yourself into, Susan is your person. She is the god in eradicating chaos. Her passion is helping small business owners to basically regain overwhelming control of their growing business is through her process development, her organization, and structuring business operations and projects. From the development process, she begins by coaching through her project managers and setting up work from home environments to eliminate paperwork, and therefore, Beyond Chaos can help you feel less overwhelmed, more effective, and quite frankly, more productive through the end of your day.

I’m trying to give our listeners a little bit of a segue about all the great things, but I just tell you, you can feel the energy coming from this, it’s just exciting. So Susan has also been a dean of success through basically Art of Value. She’s been a dean of success through the Mighty Data LLC. She’s been the director of operations through Williams-Labadie, I may have not pronounced that right. And she’s also been a traffic manager through General Growth Properties. She holds a bachelor’s in journalism from the University of Texas A&M. That’s right, folks, the University of Texas A&M.

For most of her career, she has been helping passionate business owners gain control of their business through these processes and her organization so they can make more money. I mean, obviously, folks, if you’re a small business, you get started on the wrong foot, sometimes you got to have a consultant come in and basically help you out. So when Susan is not helping a small business, some of the things that she enjoys doing is multi-course dinners.

She also enjoys American football, particularly college football, Texas A&M football, and Blackhawks hockey. She lives and works from her home in McKinley, Texas with her husband, dog, and cat. And so, Susan, sometimes people go Greg, I don’t know if I should hire you as my hype man or if I should just like give you a pat on the back. But Susan, do you have any opening remarks for our listeners?

Susan:  Well, I think that’s quite the introduction there, Gregory. I’m not sure what to say. It is Williams-Labadie.

Susan:  I worked there for 10 years, and it was in Chicago, and it was substantially colder than it is here today in McKinney, Texas, where it has dropped down to 40 almost. Very excited to be part of your 51st episode, I think that’s pretty cool that you’ve crossed over that half-century mark, so to speak. I’m very excited and looking forward to what we’re going to share here in the dos and don’ts of how to control our chaos.

Gregory:  There you go, there you go, there you go. Absolutely. Let’s kind of jump right into this. I think we’ll do a few warm-up questions because it’s rather interesting that when you start talking about a CEO, particularly as it relates to a small business, or even a Fortune 500 company, words like chaos eradicating officer kind of doesn’t really come to mind. So, walk us through how you came up with that.

Susan:  Sure. I love fun titles. You mentioned my dean of success title at my last job before I started my business. That was a fun one too. A side note there, my maiden name is Dean. That’s where that came from. So the fun titles are something that I’ve always thought made it interesting. I once interviewed for the perfection officer at an ad agency. The job was to make sure everything went perfectly out the door to the clients.

But the gist of how I got to it was, I mean, Beyond the Chaos is the name of the business. And so, I’m like, well see, chaos, that works right. We have to come up with what we do in my title. So I just took the CEO and did a little googling or a little I guess thesaurus work on getting rid of and eradicating came up and it seemed to fit. So there we go.

Gregory:  I can certainly relate because what I want to share with our listeners is, Susan and I, kind of have very similar businesses, and a lot of our listeners know that by me being the managing director of Sketcher, we do a lot of project controls, project management and those type of services. When Susan and I first met, it was through LinkedIn, and we were just chit-chatting, and realizing that there was so much in common, and there’s so much synergy there, particularly as it was relatable to stories.

I think really kind of the defining thing that kind of laid the tranches I call it of segregation between your business and mine, was the size of the projects, the size of the projects that my company takes on versus the size of the projects that your company takes on. And then kind of what we consider to be the Agile or the flexibility approach in being able to move those things forward as we render project controls and project management experience.

The Do’s and Dont’s

Gregory: I guess one of the things that I want to jump into as we talk about kind of the do’s and don’ts, is really, it is understanding the difference between the two. Project controls is really a subset of project management, and project management is really, its primary focus is on the project cost and schedule, working kind of directly with your project team and advising them of all of the issues. And the controls aspect is really kind of the guys that are, they’re kind of behind the scenes turning the wrench, really tweaking things to really kind of help people understand that when you make these great decisions, or, in some cases, wrong decisions, here are the adverse effects.

And so, Susan, I want to let you jump in a little bit and talk just a little bit about how your business specializes in these unique themes in helping small businesses succeed.

Helping Small Businesses Succeed

Susan:  Sure. That’s a big undertaking there, but I can probably summarize that up. When we’re working with small business owners, and we’re talking really small businesses, like 10 people or fewer often, the business owner has usually taken that job and decided to own their own company because they were exceptionally good at their trade. They were a great software developer or they were an amazing copywriter. And they’ve come into this world where they don’t even hardly get to do that anymore.

Now they’re doing all these other things. They are not very good necessarily at the managing of projects themselves, which is where your clients need to see the progress.

They are not necessarily good at getting into those little details and making sure that things are running on schedule, and that you’re staying in scope. So, listen to these small business owners, remember, when you’re not staying in scope, you’re costing yourself money because you’re just starting to randomly do things that you know you can solve, you’re happy to solve, you wish you could solve. But if you’re not getting paid for it, you’re doing it for free.

So, that’s where we come in to help with that scope, that time, that budget, and help maintain that. But more importantly, at that small business level, we are becoming your confidant and your friend and your go-to person because many small business owners do not have somebody like that in their business to talk to, to get advice from. To say, wow, should I even be pitching this client, this proposal, because I’ve already seen three red flags when I’ve been talking to them. Can I risk not even putting the proposal out to them?

So sometimes, we can even come in at that point and make some suggestions on, well, here are some ways to manage those red flags at the proposal stage, so that by the time you get to the project stage, it’s not going to blow up in your face.

Those are some ways that we help. We also help with team management because many of these business owners don’t have necessarily full-time employees. Whether it’s usual or very often, they are working with subcontractors, subcontractors that are working other jobs for other people. And so, being able to manage a remote team, that’s distracted by their work and sometimes just by no work.

Helping them wrangle them in, know when they’re available, know that they’re working, making sure they’re invoicing you, making sure they’re entering time against projects. All of those types of things also fall into our purview. And it gets that little nitty-gritty stuff off the business owner so that they’re able to focus more on who else can I sell these great things to, or can I go back to software development or back to writing. Can I carve out some time in my day to do what I love?

Gregory:  Yeah, I totally agree with everything that you’ve stated there. It really is conformance to the goal, and that goal, basically, as you said, it’s a triple constraint. You’ve got your cost, schedule, and scope, which, when you sign up for an RFP or a tender or any type of solicitation, you’re required to deliver. And in a lot of cases, small businesses fail to realize those major components of the accomplishment of the results that are sought, which basically is what your RFP is all about, and the completion of the necessary scope and the completion of the results, which basically ties into the performance of the overall project, or basically the job that they’re doing.

There are just so many parallels that kind of go into that. You mentioned, with regards to someone that’s looking to take on a project, but yet, they’re still in their frame of mind, maybe they don’t have their systems and processes in place, where of course your company would come in or a company of my size would come in and kind of help out the small business. But sometimes you got to sit down and you really have to do kind of a competitive analysis, and really understand, are you fit for being able to do the job. There may be other companies that are some cases more suitable.

And particularly if you’re starting and you don’t have all your processes in place, or you don’t have your project management rigor ingrained into your overall day-to-day, it may not be suitable to be able to move forward.

Gregory: And so when you see situations of small business owners trying to step up to the plate, and they’re showing what I would consider being kind of risk-taking. What are some of the things that you kind of advise them on with regards to the apprehension of things that they really kind of need to ensure that they’re prepared for, because like you said, you’re bringing kind of a box in a shop, and you’re taking care of what we consider to be backend processes? If those two boxes don’t align or if the two linkages don’t come together, I mean, what are some of the recommendations you put out there to those small businesses?

The Don’ts

Susan:  We have businesses come to us in a lot of different states. Some will be managing their projects through their email. So there’s my first don’t.

Gregory:  Wow.

Susan:  Don’t manage your projects through email. And I don’t usually say this, this is black and white, that is the wrong way to do it. But some will come to us like that. Some will come and they have tried, they’ve tried all these different project management tools. They’ve tried, and Monday, and Basecamp, and none of them “work,” they just don’t work. Well, that is not the tool that’s not working, that is the process that you’re putting into the tool that’s not working.

Do put process around the tool that you’re going to use. And that needs to usually be a written process. So, to your question about what do we usually set people up with as far as that expectation, what’s going to happen? Many things happen as this goes through. Sometimes as you start to set that structure up, you start to find team members that are not accountable to do the work. It becomes painfully obvious that that person shouldn’t be doing that role. Or hasn’t maybe even been doing that role, and you just didn’t realize it.

So, one thing we tell them to be aware of is, be prepared for some holes to be put, or holes to be shown in your business. Now, it’s still up to you how you’re going to adapt that. Could you correct that employee or that subcontractor or do you want to move on or how do you want us to help you get the information you need to help them improve all types of things we can put into your, give you more arrows in your bag. Whether those are to get people on target or to move people on.

So, while that might sound like HR, it’s not, we’re not HR experts, but that does put some holes in your personnel. The other thing it’s going to show you is where you’re lacking as far as satisfying your customer. You might find that some of your customers that are used to the old way you’re working might not like a more structured way because now, you’re starting to realize you’ve been giving them things for free. So how are you going to handle that? How can you have some resets with clients and reset their whole world of how they’re going to work with you?

It’s a lot of change that happens, it’s hard. Most of the people that come to us are overwhelmed. And so, we’re starting by saying, it’s not going to be better tomorrow. We’re going to have to work through this to get there first, but we’re going to help you get there. So you’re no longer in there hanging out by yourself. So, there’s another do. Do get help, you don’t have to do this on your own.

Gregory:  Right. I certainly appreciate that. That insight, because, statistically at least on our end of the business, we come in with systems and processes, and a good majority of the time, we follow kind of the PMI, Project Management Institute standards of engagement, because we are dealing in most cases, with a lot of government work. It’s rather coincidental that I’m going to share this stat with you because typically what we see is always, it’s always a 911 project rescue me. I can laugh about that because over the years that I’ve been doing project controls or project management on a worldly scale, I can say this with kind of no bad intent, is the fact that despite the best efforts and intentions, many organizations that fund large scale projects miss their goals for several reasons.

Gregory: There’s an optimism bias, there are manual estimating errors, there’s insufficient historical data, there’s scope creep, and many, many other factors. And so, when it comes to what we deal with on our end, which is large scale capital projects, you find that 98% of the projects incur cost overruns or delays. And on average, the increase estimates are at 80% sometimes because if we’re in a 911 rescue, we’re already behind the eight ball when my company gets involved. If there is a do that, whether you’re a large business or small business that you take away from this, is the involvement of these types of services early. Early, early, early. Susan mentioned, as early as you start to think about submitting for an RFP.

Timelines are often delayed, in some cases, up to 20 months. And, of course, I have an old cliche that I always tell my customers when we’re dealing with them, and it’s a 24-month project or even three years. We’ve run so many of these models, and we say, okay, you know what, guys, you’re bringing us in and you’re already telling us you’re 45 days behind schedule. Okay, we’re up against a brick wall here. 24 months and you’re trying to recover literally a month’s worth of work or a month and a half worth of work within the allotted time left.

Gregory: And I’m going to give an analogy here because I think everybody’s listening is probably going What the hell is Greg talking about. Well, let’s think of it this way as we look at project management and project controls. And this is a very simple analogy. So, if you’re working on a six-month project, and let’s just say you do fall behind by 30 days, that means one singular month, one singular month. If you’re an individual working in that one singular month and you’re working 150 hours or 127 hours, whatever it is, 40 hour work week, that means you’re going to have to work 280 hours in a single month to play catch up. That’s the kind of the irony of it when you start to fall behind.

So many times I get kind of the deer in the headlight look when we come in and we do our due diligence, we do an assessment, and we figure out, okay, this is what you’ve told us, and this is what you didn’t tell us, and these are the things that we believe that we’re going to have to do to go off. Do you agree? Sign on the dotted line. And then obviously we’re off and running. But in a lot of cases, that deer in the headlight look, which I’m sure you get with small businesses, it’s concerning that people get so far down the track thinking that things are just going to fall in place.

And the first thing that I always tell people when they come to me is, I tell them, basically, you have to plan to succeed. The earliest inception of planning needs to start at the day that you have the idea so that you start to lay out a comprehensive track to be able to go forward with ensuring that that idea or program or project or starting up that business is going to be successful as you move it forward, as it begins to mature, as it grows. It’s just like growing a child, it’s just like birthing a baby. I mean, all these things, they follow the same philosophies and principles in life, except we’re talking about business.

We’re in such a volatile and cyclical time now unlike anything that anybody’s ever imagined, at least in my lifetime. I’ve got family members that are pushing 100, but still, we’ve never gone through what we’ve gone through in these unprecedented times. And so, it is so crucial right now, and the things that we’re talking about today really comes down to how resilient your business is to be successful. It’s just not the norm to go out there and do some of the things that small businesses do. But you’ve got a plan, and you’ve got to be looking for those uncertain, or should I say, undesirable things that can adversely or directly or indirectly impact your business.

So, on those thoughts, Susan, what are you guys doing on your end to try to help small businesses at least alleviate, as you said, eradicate the chaos, but alleviate some of the things that maybe their forward-thinking right now is not thinking about three months down the road, four months down the road, because pipelines are really not coming back as quickly as people think they are. Some of them are, some of them aren’t. It’s still a little bit of a struggle because there’s an unknown. How do you prepare your small small business owners for some of that?

Susan:  So, the number one thing that we want is our clients to keep the clients that they already have. That’s a big one. It is much easier to continue to service and to service existing clients than it is to find new ones. So that’s the first one. And the second part of that is, I’m going to use a quote here, it’s one of my favorite quotes. Dwight Eisenhower said it. Plans are worthless but planning is essential.

And so, the difference of those two things, if you think through that quote, who had a plan on March 13th who has the same plan now? There’s pretty much no one. So that plan was worthless. But that does not mean that you’re planning, the effort that you put into creating that plan is worthless because the effort of planning, the effort of thinking through this is the next step. When I get to this step, what can go wrong? What are the risks involved? What could challenge that? Shoot, what if one of my employees gets sick, which you might have thought of before, but now you really think of it, right?

That planning allows you to be more nimble. And nimble is what you need to be in this environment. You need to be able to say, okay, that didn’t work, what do we swap out. We’ve already gone through this so we know what the options are. And if you’re doing that far enough in advance, you’re able to do something like move D day two days because of the weather.

Can you imagine trying to coordinate something that vast, that huge if you just went by the written plan? You couldn’t do it. You’d have to have gone through the effort, and the effort of that is what’s so essential.

Gregory:  You keep opening me up to things that are just so relevant. My company and I just recently worked on a fairly large job. It was in the excess of $250 million annual spend over basically a five year period with option

Coincidentally, without disclosing names or anything like that regarding the project, the things that we noticed right out of the gate was the fidelity of where the customer stood at the time of our inception of coming on board was like, how can you be tracking things down to the hour and you’re telling us that over a one year period, this guy’s only going to work 30 minutes, but yet, your checkbook is not balanced so that you understand your spend? It was so contradictory and so wrapped around the tree that my team and I was, like, you know what, we need to actually do this from the bottoms up.

And then, of course, we were met with resistance regarding the bottom-up approach, trying to get things to tie off and get into the right WBS structures and cost accounts and making sure everything was truly the way that we knew that their customer would want to see it. And then it just became so much, the chaos came into play. Then you started saying to yourself, oh my god, the philosophy of their mindset and the way they thought about things, it just literally drove my team nuts. I mean, every day, we’d have a call before the call just so I can make sure everybody had a nice little sip of wine before we got on the call and we were all mellow.

But it’s just one of those things where it’s just like, you’ve got to look at things through the right lens. And I think that’s where, like you were stating earlier, having consultancy folks on board that understand how to plan and how to get you from A to Z in the most logical, efficient, and cost-effective manner is worth its goal in dollars that you have to pay. You would not believe the number of times I’ve heard this cliche, and I’m only going to state it because you and I can relate to this, and it’s so comical to me. Where people come to me sometimes they go, oh, my God, you guys, your estimators, your schedulers, your project controls managers, and your data junkie guys, you guys are running a black box. You put stuff in and then you guys give us all this.

I say, well, I’ll tell you what, if that’s the way you feel in the notion of how I think, garbage in equals garbage out. And if you plan to succeed in a manner where you logically successfully think through the issues and the roadblocks and the red tape, and you lay out the best optimum plan, then a likelihood of you succeeding is highly probable. It’s not the garbage in garbage out. And certainly, that doesn’t quantify you being in a black box or us, the services that we provide, being a black box.

And so, I guess my next question to you is, these types of things happen regardless of big business or small business because sometimes that planning as we’ve talked about, that planning aspect, just tends to go by the wayside. Because like you said, sometimes a small business owner is great at what they do, but they’re not necessarily great at running their business or I.e, planning for success. Same thing we see on the big business side of the table as well. You take over $250 million annual gross, or not annual gross, but $250 million budget per year project, and then you’re not executing, you’re not performing, you’re not doing what you’re supposed to do. Basically, you’re not delivering. It’s worse than having an egg on your face.

Susan:  There’s an interesting perception I think that people have the idea that everybody should do their jobs, right?

Gregory:  Right.

Susan:  Great. Everybody should do their jobs. They don’t necessarily understand what the project manager’s job is, and that is to make sure that all of those people work together as a team. If you send a football team out on the field and tell the center to hike the ball and the quarterback to call a play and the running back to run, well, without anybody coordinating when all that happens, which play is called at which time, when does the center snap the ball, without coordinating that, you just have a bunch of people doing stuff.

And probably, it’s not going to end well.

Gregory:  And going in multiple directions, which obviously we’ve seen time and time and time again.

Susan:  Right. And so, making sure that you have that facilitator, that person who’s making sure the team is working together and moving in harmony, a coach or, sometimes we laugh, sometimes it’s a babysitter. Sometimes whatever that role is, the project manager is what is completely impossible to replace because it doesn’t matter how good the rest of the team is at their job. If they don’t know how to do it in harmony and within the controls of the project at hand, it’s not going to succeed.

Rapid Fire!

Gregory:  Yeah, yeah. You’re spot on. You’re absolutely spot on. Sometimes we call that herding cats. All right, Susa, so look, we’re coming up on the end of our time, this has been great. I got some rapid-fire questions. Usually what I like to do is just have my featured guests just kind of tell me their thoughts on some of these questions. And it’s usually basically something that really comes to mind. What I’m going to do is I’m going to preface it this and I’m going to say, it is the process that defines controls and project management, and also underpins what is needed and the strengths of project controls and project management, which is basically the attention to detail, and the focus on the approach. These are all things that we’ve talked about.

And so, what I’m going to do is I’m going to jump into these 10 or 12 rapid-fire questions just to kind of see the significance of their importance, and just how you would answer them, and the context of how we want to demonstrate, these are excruciatingly important to any small business or any large business that’s listening to this particular podcast. So, are you ready there, pal?

Susan:  I’m ready, let’s go.

Gregory:  All right, here we go, here we go. So the first one, project planning.

Susan:  Well, it’s highly important and should be done before you start your project.

Gregory:  Okay, perfect, perfect. Budgeting.

Susan:  Obviously, we’re all in this to make money. Bottom line, you might want to serve and do all those things, but if you don’t make money, you won’t be here tomorrow. So budgeting, highly important, should also be one of those things you do before you start executing the project.

Gregory:  Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Unless you’re working for free. You got to make sure that your spending is not more than what you’ve got coming in. I mean, that’s just simple, simple stuff we learn in early grades of childhood elementary school. Risk Management.

Susan:  Risk Management is a tough one because especially in smaller projects, people tend to ignore it. But it’s important to know that even small projects, risk can totally take them over, whether it’s from a person being sick, which is a small project could be substantially a bigger issue than in a big project, where maybe you have many people filling the same role. So, risk needs to be evaluated regularly throughout the project.

Gregory:  Change management.

Susan:  Oh, this is my favorite. You have to be able to control the changes. You as a professional have an obligation to deliver the project that you are hired to deliver, and you cannot let the client and their changes modify that without being very clear with them what the result is.

Gregory:  So I’ve got two more. Or excuse me, actually forecasting.

Susan:  Forecasting. So, forecasting is probably more of a project controls thing than it is a project management thing. Forecasting is going to be with larger projects, a bigger deal than with smaller projects. With smaller projects, it’s pretty much more of a waterfall or a short agile relationship. With larger projects, being able to see into the future and see what you’re doing today and how that affects the long term goal is important because just because you’re on target for budget today, doesn’t mean that in two weeks, you still are if you’re not accommodating and looking at that forecast properly.

Gregory:  Yep, yep, totally agree. It’s always an extrapolation exercise that you’ve got to look at regularly. Certainly agree with you there. Okay, so performance management.

Susan:  Performance Management is huge. I’m assuming your question from this standpoint is more, since we’re talking about professional services, we’re talking about the ability of the people who are participating in the project to perform properly. And that is important. And as I mentioned at the top of the show, it’s something that a lot of these types of controls are going to shed light on. It’s going to be obvious who is and isn’t doing their job, and you need to be able to make sure that you’re requiring something sustainable to the team member, but also that that team member is meeting the expectation, which also means expectations must be clearly set.

Gregory:  Absolutely, absolutely. And the only thing I would add into that is, as you do look at personnel and processes, I mean, to me, it really comes down to the health of the project. It really states, are you operating your project in the red, yellow, or green? That’s just another simple way of kind of looking at it is really the monitoring of the project’s health. And I think this last one, I mean, your business is all over this, and I can see why you’ve had so much success. And that is project administration.

Susan:  I love that. And project administration, we would call that project management here. But it’s the day to day making sure every team member knows what they need to do, what is their highest priority, whether or not they have a blocker to continue working. And then helping them to resolve any of those blockers. A lot of the times in those instances or also being the empathetic ear and the shoulder to cry on, when there’s too much or there’s overwhelm, and being there to help pull the team together, not just practically, but also from an emotional and mental state level, is something that we find is important to our project control area there.

Gregory:  Yep, yep, yep, Totally, totally agree. And obviously, this has been a phenomenal communication, and great insight between you and me I. I’ve enjoyed this, and I just want to ask if you have any closing remarks before we wrap up.

Susan:  My biggest thing is, make sure that when you’re out there and working in these worlds, that you realize what your limit is. So, pay attention. If you are not good at getting into these details that Gregory and I are talking about, get some help because this can really make or break your business.

Gregory:  Yep, yep. I totally, totally agree. And certainly, as you and I have catered around and joked and laughed for many, many months now that we’ve known each other, we are, as people would say, we’re specialists in our field, but obviously, the dynamics of what we do in protecting your sweat equity, hard investment, and becoming your eyes and ears as being a spokesperson and advocate for your success is something that our business truly revolves around as far as project management and project controls.

Gregory:  And certainly, Susan, I don’t know, man, I think we just need to do a series. I’ve been sitting here listening to us, and we’ve been kind of going back and forth. I try not to get on my soapbox, I was holding myself down and scrapping myself to the seat. But there’s so much information that you and I can share. We have such a great working relationship professionally that there’s so much we can share with the world. We’re going to have to consider doing that.

Susan:  I think we do. And I know we talked about that a while ago. The world came down on us and we had to do what we had to do. But I think we might have to look into that in the future. I think you’re right. I think we have a lot that we can share out there to help people get beyond their chaos and quelch their overwhelm and start getting their lives back.

Gregory:  That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. And so, to our listeners, this has been an outstanding informative episode. For anyone that is running a project, anyone that is running a small business, or anyone that is thinking about taking on a task that is quite overwhelming, please consider how important it is to think before you move forward. Before we go Susan, would you like to provide your contact information? I don’t want to leave that out.

Susan:  Sure. Yeah, absolutely. You can reach out to me via social media or email, phone, any method you’d like.

Gregory:  Excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent. Well, my friend, this has been great. I’m going to give you a virtual hug. I know you weren’t feeling well today. I’m glad I convinced you to kind of jump into the excitement and fun with Kut2thachase. I really appreciate it. love you very much. And to those out there, this has been great. This is Gregory Proctor, Kut2thachase. We’d like to say bye-bye to Susan, and bye-bye, everyone. Take care.

Susan:  Thanks, Gregory. Bye-bye.



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